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CARBON SPARS - FEEDBACK from Fireball Class

2 section masts : Repairs : Insurance

Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 5:01 PM
Subject: RE: Carbon Masts

 
Peter,
 
For the Fireball, and I suspect the FD, the two-section mast idea
isn't the good idea it appears to be at first glance.
 
The Selden/Proctor's filament wound masts have a 'step-down'
transition to go from a straight section to the tapered upper section.
The pre-preg tape on mandrel Superspar masts are tapered from
top to bottom.  They have to be, or you couldn't get them off the
mandrel.  The filament-wound CST masts are either straight tubes
(for cats) or tapered.  None of them are two-piece.
 
In my mind, there are only two applications where the two-section
mast makes sense.  The first is when the class mast is already a
two-piece mast (eg. Laser, Topper), and it would be a simple matter
to replace the upper section with carbon.  Superspars seems to be
quite aggressive in promoting this approach for those classes (see
is for classes (Skiffs, Int'l 14) where the mast below the hounds is
kept in static column mode by the rig tension (i.e. the shape of the
lower section of the mast is 'locked' into position by the rig tension),
and the mast above the hounds is flexible enough to shed gust loads.
On some of the older (mid-nineties) 18' skiffs, the lower part of the
mast consisted of an aluminium tube, and the upper section was a
fibreglass tip.  Interestingly, carbon was not used for the tip, as it
didn't deflect enough to provide good gust response and didn't have
the toughness to resist the cyclical loading.  Both problems have
since been resolved, but one must keep in mind that skiff rigs are
rigidly locked into shape below the hounds, sort of like a modern
sailboard rig, which is a 'hard' sail.  You then end up with different
rigs for different conditions (18' skiffs have three rigs, sailboards
even more), not the thing to do if you want to control costs.
 
In any case, a two-piece mast results in a hard point which
invariably messes up the bend and dynamic properties.  It is of
no concern for the two cases mentioned above, but the 'soft'
Fireball (and FD) rigs are based on masts that bend smoothly
from the gooseneck on up to allow for adjusting the rig to suit
the conditions.  It would obviously be possible to 'redesign' the
Fireball/FD rig so that it acts like a Skiff/International 14 rig, but
that would essentially entail going from a 'soft' to a 'hard' rig, with
all the attendant problems such as full-length battens, additional
spreaders and higher rig tension.  More rule changes coming up!
 
I guess that a general rule-of-thumb would be that two-piece masts
can be used for classes with 'hard' rigs (49er, Skiff, 14), but the
one-piece masts are required for classes with 'soft' rigs.
 
 
Regards,
 
Tom
 
 
 
In passing, the Fireball class has been looking at two-piece masts,
to be able to use 20' containers for shipping.  Our mast is just a bit
too long, less than ix inches, to fit into a twenty footer. But instead of
having a removable upper section, we've been looking at having a
removable lower (below gooseneck) section.  That way, the bend
characteristics of the mast are maintained, you get the benefit of a
stronger mast at the mastgate (a weak point for Fireball masts), and
the mast material doesn't matter.  Routing of halyards can be a problem,
and you always have to wonder how the temporary connection is made.
 
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
From: Peter Hinrichsen [mailto:hinrichsen@videotron.ca]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 09:50
To: Thomas Egli
Subject: Re: Carbon Masts

 
Dear Tom,
    You are of course quite correct.  However a number of carbon mast builders have suggested that they make masts in two sections and that you do not need to glue the joint!!!  In the case of a broken tip you would only have to replace the tip.  One could even have different tips for different crews!
Cheers
Peter
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: Carbon Masts

 
Peter,
 
The insurance companies have figured out that you can't really
properly repair a carbon mast. In theory you can, but in reality
you cannot, especially not for a high-performance mast.
 
To properly repair a carbon mast (i.e. re-establish the static and
dynamic properties) you would have to scarf in the same number/
type/thickness of carbon plies in the same orientation as the
original, and then use the same type of adhesive in order to ensure
strain compatibility.  Given that commercially produced masts consist
of lightweight (less than 2 oz.) pre-preg uni-directional mid-to-high
modulus carbon, and are vacuum-bagged and post-cured (at a
minimum) or autoclaved, I don't think the average Joe would be able
to do a good repair.
 
What usually happens is that the break or crack is repaired with a
wet hand layup of a couple of layers of heavy carbon cloth, the
equivalent of welding a sleeve to an aluminium mast.  This does
'repair' the mast in that it is one piece again, but the mast ends
up with a 'hard' point (due to the additional carbon on either side
of the break) which destroys the bend characteristics and the
dynamic response.  Ironically, you also end up with a 'soft' point
at the break, as the higher resin ratio of the wet layup results in
a shallower load-deflection response.
 
Given the proper facilities (i.e. the manufacturer's shop), a carbon
mast can be repaired, but so could an aluminium one.  I guess the
myth that a carbon mast can be repaired dates back to the days
when carbon masts were built in somebody's garage by wet hand
layup out of low-modulus carbon bi-or-tri directional cloth.
 
To make a long story short, any mast is damaged in a high-stress
area that is not vital to the bend or dynamic characteristics, e.g.
the gooseneck or mast partner area, can be repaired by 'reinforcing'
the area, whether the mast is aluminium or carbon.  But is the mast is
dented, bent or broken in a vital area, a competitor will replace the
mast, not repair it.
 
Regards,
 
Tom
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Hinrichsen [mailto:hinrichsen@videotron.ca]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 08:09
To: Thomas Egli
Subject: Re: Carbon Masts

 
Dear Tom,
Never thought of that but obviously insurance is a significant problem.  Funny though as one can repair a carbon mast while aluminum requires a new one?
Cheers
Peter
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: Carbon Masts

 
Peter,
 
Interesting write-up.  As soon as I have some time
later this week, I'll go through it and give comment.
 
In passing, it seems that one of the big downsides
to carbon spars is getting insurance for them.  According
to people in the Merlin class (which has gone for carbon),
it seems that most insurers in the UK will insure the boat,
but not the carbon spar or the sails attached to it.  They
feel that the technology is not yet ripe.
 
Regards,
 
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Hinrichsen [mailto:hinrichsen@videotron.ca]
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 13:51
To: Thomas Egli
Subject: Carbon Masts

 
Dear Tom,
    The FD is considering carbon masts and I attach a position paper which you might find readable.  Any comments would be most welcome.
What is the situation re carbon masts in the Fireball?  Last time I asked you they were still banned.
Cheers
Peter

 

 

 

 

 

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